Ukraine war (WW3)

LT42

I have no problem taking this “loss”, for the sake of people’s eyesight.

hugopal

Homegrove but I’ll still take his view over yours any day

There’s no “view” to take - I’ve demonstrated that he’s chatting absolute shit.

But if you wish to happily lie-down open-mouthed under the point of his anus then go right ahead.

hugopal

BlainSA In other words, you didn’t get past the introduction

The introduction summarises the argument in the book, which I further summarised in the TLDR. Much of the rest of the book is hidden on google and I’m not going to spend £100 to purchase it. I did also read a couple of earlier academic papers by the authors on related topics though, which seemed sound, and which is how I found out about their book.

BlainSA

hugopal In other words, you didn’t get past the introduction

LT42

What do you get for this “win” Hugo?

Doubt you’ll have anyone to celebrate with. Enjoy 🍾

LT42

hugopal They also point out that changing public opinions against a war can and does lead to toppling of governments.

Can you give an example of this in the West since 1997?

hugopal

LT42 Tony Blair’s falling approval ratings over the Iraq war led to his eventual resignation in 2007. Then in the subsequent general election in 2010 under Gordon Brown Labour suffered their biggest loss of seats in a single general election since 1931, leading to the Con-Lib coalition.

LT42

hugopal the war brought down Labour? Wow, first time I’ve heard that.
What has all this got to do with the post Nas made if you don’t mind me asking?

alistair

hugopal there were a number of reasons Brown lost in 2010 (GFC, recession, run out of ideas after 13 years, indecisive, gaffe prone PM). Don’t think Iraq war featured highly. Blair was emblematic of that and he was long gone

hugopal

LT42 the war brought down Labour? Wow, first time I’ve heard that.

It brought down Tony Blair, while starting Labour’s haemorrhaging of support and seats. Blair had previously been Labour’s most popular leader in aeons and one of, if not their biggest, selling points. After him being forced out they then had no one as charismatic or popular in the party to replace him with.

Sure, the economic crisis helped finish off Labour, though that occurred after Blair’s resignation (plus Putin has also brought on his own economic crisis).

Tony Blair is still despised by many in the UK for the Iraq war; you surely can’t honestly proclaim your ignorance at not being aware of it.

LT42 What has all this got to do with the post Nas made if you don’t mind me asking?

I’ll remind you of two of your early reponses to me:

LT42 Images like that on the internet have not and never will sway people’s involvement in war

and:

LT42 Yet public opinion matters not. Everyone knows war is shit, we don’t need videos to change our mind of that. Regimes go to war despite public opinion.

I’ve been pointing out that, contrary to your rash statements above, the spread of images of military casualties can and does reduce support for the respective war amongst those incurring such casualties.

Furthermore, that reduction in support for a war amongst a populace can and does lead to the toppling of governments.

It’s really not very complicated (or at least it shouldn’t be to those who aren’t a bit mentally challenged).

LT42

hugopal Furthermore, that reduction in support for a war amongst a populace can and does lead to the toppling of governments.

Ah yes, public opinion after the horse has bolted. Wonderful.
What about public opinion before the invasion in 2003 or pre-Ukraine? That’s the point, regimes will still go to war. Images won’t stop young men and women signing up for war either, which was a side point. You’ve now opened so many tangents as to cover your initial shitpost directed at Nas whilst throwing books at me to prove one thing or another. You’re a fucking disaster. Go for a walk. Its embarrassing.

hugopal

alistair Labour’s majority at the 2005 general election had already fallen from 167 to 66 seats.

Plus the fact that they had an “indecisive, gaffe prone PM” in 2010 was because their popular PM had lost popularity and was pushed out due to Iraq.

As a side-not “time for change” and “recession” are also reasons which will be pertinent in the minds of Russians regarding Putin, especially as their recession will have been caused by the war.

hugopal

LT42 Ah yes, public opinion after the horse has bolted. Wonderful.
What about public opinion before the invasion in 2003 or pre-Ukraine?

Pure whataboutism - obviously there will be no images of casualties from the war until the war has already started. Before a war starts it’s only hypotheticals and propaganda. But once a war has started, then news and images of casualties brings home the realities of its potential costs to its people, especially if the war does not go well and casualties start to mount.

Look how quickly the percentage of people who thought the UK was right to go to war in Iraq fell, btw:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/583975/united-kingdom-uk-public-opinion-of-military-action-in-iraq/

This research paper also points out that people who thought that UK casualties in Iraq were higher also tended to have a more negative opinion of the war:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/276438495_British_Public_Opinion_after_a_Decade_of_War_Attitudes_to_Iraq_and_Afghanistan

LT42 That’s the point, regimes will still go to war.

Your statements were claiming it has no effect whatsoever. You were wrong and are now backtracking.

Anyway, even if it it doesn’t prevent any war ever happening again in future, it can contribute to ending the current war sooner, which is still incredibly important.

Plus even if it doesn’t end wars for eternity, it can still have a preventative effect. As I pointed out in my earlier posts, death penalty for murderers doesn’t stop people committing murder, but it’s likely to have some discouraging effect and reduce their prevalence.

The preventative effect against wars won’t last forever, but that’s why the quote (attributed to Churchill) “Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it” is so valid.

An additional note on this, referencing another earlier point I made - the low casualties suffered by Russia in Crimea and Donbass may have emboldened them to a full-scale assault. But the battering they are currently taking would make them reconsider another full-scale country invasion for a while at least.

LT42

hugopal again, none of this has anything to do with your post to Nas. Chasing your tail “as I mentioned earlier in the thread.”

You’ve now gone all in on a totally unrelated viewpoint and are still hammering it home, like the stupid bastard you are.

War images sway public opinion and may play a part in removing a politician after the war. Ok. Maybe. Great. (I’m sure public opinion related to Blair was for the motive to go to war, rather than the images).

Regimes still go to war and people still sign up for war. Thats not a “backtrack”, thats an indisputable fact.

I hope that breakdown snaps you out of this fog you’re in, if not, may I recommend a lobotomy?

hugopal

LT42 War images sway public opinion and may play a part in removing a politician after the war. Ok. Maybe. Great.

So you do finally accept my viewpoint - which contradicted your earlier posts (plus it is self-evidently relevant to my initial post to Nas given that images of casualties lead to reduced support of war in both the countries and immediate communities where the casualties come from).

Good that you’ve finally come around, wasn’t that difficult now was it?

That is all.

LT42

hugopal So you do finally accept my viewpoint

No. There is far more to it than your over-simplistic opinion. Rather than go into that in great detail I was trying to stick to the original point.
So if your argument is kosher, (taking into account the source of this whole mindnumbing tit for tat is a 60 second video clip) what you’re saying is images of the war in Iraq removed Tony Blair from power? As opposed to any other reason. Do you not realise how ridiculously myopic that is?

The only other part of your diatribe that goes without saying is that people can have their opinions swayed by gruesome images. Amazing.

None of the above have any connection with your post to Nas about the mother or family potentially seeing that video. Again. I NEED TO TYPE THAT FOR YOU.

Unless what you were trying to say all along was - its ok for that Mother to see the images, maybe she’ll be against the war now. Which would not only be hugely insensitive but absolutely irrelevant to the post Nas made. Which, lets be honest, was a shitty antagonostic attempt to single out a genuinely good poster on here. The kind of comment where if you weren’t hiding behind a keyboard you’d get a slap in the mouth for.

hugopal

@Homegrove - now that LT has finally recognised he was mistaken are you still gobbling out his arsehole?

BlainSA

Homegrove you stupid fucking cunt.

Does anyone else go all Frank Spencer when Homegrove says the c word?

zackster

I am sorry, but this is not a person

alistair

zackster the Dem’s Sarah Palin

zackster

jonattonyeah

zackster

Good god he’s just so stupid

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