alistair people that voted Brexit are no fucking friends of mine pal. I can just about get over one or two of them voting Tory.
Truss (general uk sucks thread)
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bosstrabs the likes of Charles Michel not actually being elected by and accountable to voters
He’s elected by the people the voters elect.
It’s not really any different from say the role of the Bundespresident in Germany’s democratic system (currently Steinmeier).
It’s hardly a huge deal. The EC Presidents get 2.5 year terms and the Council can also vote to remove them. They seem to mostly be mediators and administrators rather than having any significant power.
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hugopal He’s elected by the people the voters elect.
It’s not really any different from say the role of the Bundespresident in Germany’s democratic system (currently Steinmeier).
It’s hardly a huge deal. The EC Presidents get 2.5 year terms and the Council can also vote to remove them. They seem to mostly be mediators and administrators rather than having any significant power.
It is a huge deal and it’s the same for von der Leyden. The executive should be elected by, accountable to, and removed by the people, in whom sovereignty resides.
It majorly pisses me off that the EU and its most ardent supporters don’t fully recognise that this (rightly) allows Euroscepticism to breed.
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hugopal it’s one step removed. Do you know what the average turnout is at EU elections in the UK? About 35%. No one gives a fuck. You call that democratic legitimacy? Who votes for Commissioners (people with real power) and the EU presidents? They are political appointees, often failed politicians like Peter Mandelson. Same with Junker, von der Leyen etc.
alistair it’s one step removed. Do you know what the average turnout is at EU elections in the UK? About 25%. No one gives a fuck. You call that democratic legitimacy.
The fact that people don’t bother to vote for something despite the fact that they can is not really the same thing as there being a lack of democratic accountability.
The European Commission has similarities to the UK Civil Service, which isn’t voted for either. It’s a workhorse of intelligent and qualified minds that is ultimately accountable to and sits underneath the elected bodies.
All infinitely preferable to the hegemonic Tory, Old Estonian soup we have in Westminster.
Millsy All infinitely preferable to the hegemonic Tory, Old Estonian soup we have in Westminster.
But committed Europhiles (apparently Hugo) miss the point completely.
It’s that the whole opaque system and the distancing of the executive from the popular vote is what feeds Euroscepticism and gives it its most potent weapons.
Yet Europe blunders on, not recognising that, being too myopic to embark on the genuinely democratic reforms needed.
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bosstrabs I mean, a lot of the regulations are investigated, implemented and enforced by the Commission and the Commission’s Civil Service in the same way that the UK Civil Service operates.
Legislation is often driven by and requested by the voted for Council and Parliaments.
The legislation has to then be approved by the Council and Parliament .
The lead Commissioners are also appointed by the Council.
It’s hardly as if it operates in a vacuum. It does not hold “Executive Power” in the same way and to the same extent that many other so-called Executives do in democracies. They ultimately still have to act in a way which is agreed upon and approved by the Council and Parliament.
Which particular elements of these so-called “Executive” powers which the Commission holds are so egregious and unusual, and can not be held to account by the Parliament and Council?
hugopal I mean, a lot of the regulations are investigated, implemented and enforced by the Commission and the Commission’s Civil Service in the same way that the UK Civil Service operates.
Legislation is often driven by and requested by the voted for Council and Parliaments.
The legislation has to then be approved by the Council and Parliament .
The lead Commissioners are also appointed by the Council.
It’s hardly as if it operates in a vacuum. It does not hold “Executive Power” in the same way and to the same extent that many other so-called Executives do in democracies. They ultimately still have to act in a way which is agreed upon and approved by the Council and Parliament.
Which particular elements of these so-called “Executive” powers which the Commission holds are so egregious and unusual, and can not be held to account by the Parliament and Council?
Alright mate, then you fly back here, via a time machine, to provincial England circa late 2015, and make your point to convince all those people who are going to vote Brexit based on this.
Because fuck knows I tried hard enough to dissuade plenty of people from voting Brexit, but now you put it like that, I’m sure you’ll have their ear.
PS when you go, use the word ‘egregious’ a lot.
Smallman1 There almost was fairly recently (if he’d kept his seat in 2010)…
hugopal sure, some people would just rather listen to misleading soundbites from Nigel Farage.
The question ‘How do we remove them?’ posed by Tony Benn (cited previously by Alistair) is a reasonable one though.
How do you personally remove von der Leyen?
Removing Boris Johnson is straightforward, although obviously you have to wait for the next GE.
It’s a big problem that the EU and its staunchest followers don’t see that as a particularly problematic issue.
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Junker was begging to be removed. Handsy drunken provincial joke of a politician
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bosstrabs Removing Boris Johnson is straightforward, although obviously you have to wait for the next GE.
Removing von der Leyen is straightforward, although generally you have to wait for the next Presidential vote - when the leader you’ve voted for and entrusted to make decisions will act with the other elected leaders in deciding whether they should continue or not.
It is also possible to remove them during their term via a vote of no confidence in the Parliament - the threat of one ended Jacques Santer’s reign in 1999 and led to his Commission cabinet all resigning.
Perhaps if the UK populace themselves are particularly unhappy with the standing President then they can make the view known via their MEP to the European Parliament, or via their MP to the PM. They could also vote for a party in line with their political views who will in turn be more likely to support a President who shares a similar political outlook.