NHS pay rises
Likewise - Irish father and older brother fans before me. My younger brother too.
I’ve passed on the hereditary illness to my kids too. Joking aside we’ve had it fucking good for the last few years so can’t complain
My folks both from Liverpool but neither had any real interest in football so me Man U and my brother Liverpool. They didn’t like the Beatles either.
Phil-McRackin
Extra points for Phil, independent thinking 
Mad_Cyril it was either those 2, Everton or occasionally Chester City in the wilds of West Cheshire…I think it came down to a scratchy handmedown Man U top from one of my mum’s friends in the end.
Phil-McRackin Fate can be a wonderful thing
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alistair You cannot compare the last two years spending when the 60 billion increase was to deal with covid. Click on the link I posted that shows the split between the actual budget and the covid allocation for more realistic figures:
https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget
Concerning spending as a percentage of GDP:
https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/chart/nhs-spending-as-a-percentage-of-gdp-1950-2020
States that spending as a percentage of GDP has come steadily down since 2010.
I’d also be dubious of using percentages of anything as a figure too - if GDP comes down 50% (an extreme example to illustrate the point), then an increase of, say, 10% percent is still a gigantic pay cut in real terms. Brexit is going to have a bad effect on GDP and this will feed through to the NHS financing.
As CJ points out, costs are also going up due to a longer living population so unless the rate of increase matches the rising in costs, it’s again, a pay cut in literal pound value.
Another area which needs reform is the culture / power within the organsiation wielded by senior consultants. I know of a case where a consultant on a 50% contract was deliberately blocking the appointment of another consultant to help clear the massive backlog of operations piling up because there was insufficient allocation of resource to the area for a number of years. The operation waiting lists were such a disgrace that the trust was having to pay the consultant to do the work as a private consultant on his private rates - all while he continuously blocked the Trust making appointments to cope with the backlog of operations.
I would like to think that situations like this are very rare and this example is an exception to the rule, but any system that tolerates shit like this needs to change.
alistair Do you think NHS workers, teachers and the police get fair salaries for the jobs they do, Alistair?
The spectre of inflation? Fucking LOL
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Along_the_Wire depends which teachers. We have had first hand experience of great and awful ones during this pandemic where my children are concerned. Talk about throwing light on shade. Some have done live team sessions without fail and have been great, others have sent PDFs of whole new topics, effectively said try teaching yourself and I’ll be on email if you have any questions. Should they have been paid the same?
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Along_the_Wire do you realise what millions of people in the private sector are going through through no fault of their own? They are certainly not getting paid full salary let alone demanding a pay rise
alistair What’s that got to do with teacher salaries?
alistair So teachers don’t deserve to be paid a decent salary because you’ve experienced some shit ones? Most teachers are excellent
alistair A lot of them will be earning more than teachers for sitting on their arses doing nothing.
I am aware of what’s going on in the commercial world, Alistair, I run a huge commercial team and went through a nasty restructure over the summer. All but one of the people we made redundant have got jobs. If someone doesn’t like being on furlough, they can look for other jobs, can’t they? I thought that sort of view of the world would be right up you right-wing strasse.
Along_the_Wire I don’t know. You’re the one who has got firing people in the midst of a pandemic on their conscience
alistair The people in private employment haven’t been declared ‘essential workers’ and been on the front line treating covid, risking their lives and the lives of their own loved ones under the harshest of conditions (lets not forget the national shortage of PPE fiasco and all the other failures).
The NHS staff deserve every penny they want for what they’ve been put through.
alistair What on earth are you talking about?
I can’t comment on Police pay rises and it brings up memories of IH.
What a woman.
Wally Concerning spending as a percentage of GDP:
https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/chart/nhs-spending-as-a-percentage-of-gdp-1950-2020
States that spending as a percentage of GDP has come steadily down since 2010.
Ah come on now mate. Yes, it has come steadily down since 2010 but look at the graph and look where that percentage is at vs the prior fifty years.
The bottom line is that if healthcare costs grow faster than productivity / GDP, the NHS will consume a larger and larger share of government spending, meaning cuts for things like education. We’d rather try to reign in health spending and increase the investment in our next generation instead, right?
Looking after a geriatric diabetic population of benefit claimants is a noble aim but it makes more sense in my mind to aim for a slimmer, smarter next generation rather than just bloating the NHS indefinitely.
They should look at means testing and charging for NHS care as well imo. I think in Finland for example there are small fees for GP appointments and hospital stays (@Homegrove?). Does this not seem sensible? Or is free healthcare for all still too much of a sacred cow?
I get what you’re saying but I think simplifying the tax system, closing tax loop holes and making corporations (and private individual via inheritance tax) pay their fair share is the way to finance it all. The amount of money corporations and various rich people get let off for one reason or another is obscene.
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It’s just a reminder that we share this world together, Dave. Trisco is not simply a song, it’s a fundacion.
“Another thread ruined” - Big Fella (RIP)
I think as a start, it’s prolly best not to vote for the Tories then go from there
C_J I think in Finland for example there are small fees for GP appointments and hospital stays (@Homegrove?). Does this not seem sensible? Or is free healthcare for all still too much of a sacred cow?
Why the fuck should the poorest and most vulnerable pay when there are giant companies and billionaires who could pay a small amount more and make a huge difference to the whole of society.
nicksneddon Amen brother.
We’ve never had it completely free in the first place though.
Besides the moral standpoint, I am fairly convinced by the practical argument that redistributive policies make the economy work better anyway, from the data I have seen.
Poorer households spend a much higher proportion of their income on consumption than rich people do. There is a fairly robust practical argument for things like unemployment benefits and subsidised/free necessities as the overall effect is to free up some of the low-income household budget for spending on crap like widescreen tellies (and Cath Kidston wellies) and thus boost consumer demand in the economy. This is why I (personally) think extreme supply-side economics is short-termist in that it is basically stripping the ability of poorer households to consume out of the economy.
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Homegrove You see that’s the problem. Once you start giving stuff to people for free they become dependent on it and think they’re entitled to it.
for the record, I would not be expecting people on minimum wage or unemployed people to necessarily be contributing to this. The left like to paint this as evil Tories deliberately going after the poor and the vulnerable. I think that’s a bit childish personally.
To sum up, tax tech companies more and keep the god awful Labour party out of government.
Is that about right?
C_J I would not be expecting people on minimum wage or unemployed people to necessarily be contributing to this. The left like to paint this as evil Tories deliberately going after the poor and the vulnerable. I think that’s a bit childish personally.
I don’t think you have enough cynicism towards the right then…
James Buchanan, 2005: people who “failed to foresee and save money for their future needs are to be treated, as subordinate members of the species, akin to…animals who are dependent”
C_J Once you start giving stuff to people for free they become dependent on it and think they’re entitled to it.
Bigger conversation there then about what as a human you should be entitled too. Another slippery slope… should they be entitled to water? Food? Shelter? Healthcare? Where do you start and stop? I think if a country is as wealthy as the UK is, we should be able to look after our own, and we should be able to give people free medical care, regardless of the fact that some of them will take it for granted or feel entitled to it.
Are you really that upset by the fact that some poor people are cunts, that you look at the state of America, and think, ’Yeah, they’ve got it right, I fancy a bit of that’? Plenty of the rich and wealthy are cunts too.
I think there is an onus on the NHS itself to do better with management of its service / funding too. If we take the example from yesterday, the Government has done its bit in setting up these arrangements with other countries - the responsibility for reclaiming the costs falls to the NHS. When the unclaimed costs run into the hundreds of millions its pretty negligent on their part to not be recovering the money which could be reinvested into the service.