NHS pay rises

alistair

Along_the_Wire I don’t know. You’re the one who has got firing people in the midst of a pandemic on their conscience

Along_the_Wire

alistair What on earth are you talking about?

Wally

alistair The people in private employment haven’t been declared ‘essential workers’ and been on the front line treating covid, risking their lives and the lives of their own loved ones under the harshest of conditions (lets not forget the national shortage of PPE fiasco and all the other failures).

The NHS staff deserve every penny they want for what they’ve been put through.

alistair

Wally Nurses do. GPs Teachers and Police? Not right now no

Smallman1

I can’t comment on Police pay rises and it brings up memories of IH.

What a woman.

C_J

Wally Concerning spending as a percentage of GDP:

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/chart/nhs-spending-as-a-percentage-of-gdp-1950-2020

States that spending as a percentage of GDP has come steadily down since 2010.

Ah come on now mate. Yes, it has come steadily down since 2010 but look at the graph and look where that percentage is at vs the prior fifty years.

The bottom line is that if healthcare costs grow faster than productivity / GDP, the NHS will consume a larger and larger share of government spending, meaning cuts for things like education. We’d rather try to reign in health spending and increase the investment in our next generation instead, right?

Looking after a geriatric diabetic population of benefit claimants is a noble aim but it makes more sense in my mind to aim for a slimmer, smarter next generation rather than just bloating the NHS indefinitely.

They should look at means testing and charging for NHS care as well imo. I think in Finland for example there are small fees for GP appointments and hospital stays (@Homegrove?). Does this not seem sensible? Or is free healthcare for all still too much of a sacred cow?

Amps

C_J I think in Finland for example there are small fees for GP appointments and hospital stays (@Homegrove?). Does this not seem sensible? Or is free healthcare for all still too much of a sacred cow?

Why the fuck should the poorest and most vulnerable pay when there are giant companies and billionaires who could pay a small amount more and make a huge difference to the whole of society.

Wally

I get what you’re saying but I think simplifying the tax system, closing tax loop holes and making corporations (and private individual via inheritance tax) pay their fair share is the way to finance it all. The amount of money corporations and various rich people get let off for one reason or another is obscene.

Amps

Wally Is right.

jonattonyeah

It’s just a reminder that we share this world together, Dave. Trisco is not simply a song, it’s a fundacion.

bosstrabs

“Another thread ruined” - Big Fella (RIP)

nicksneddon

I think as a start, it’s prolly best not to vote for the Tories then go from there

Amps

nicksneddon Amen brother.

Homegrove

Amps we’re talking real small. And if you have to go a lot you only need to pay once a year. Giving birth was like a 100 € or something.

Amps

Homegrove Regardless, you set a precedent that it should be paid for. And again, we are talking about the poorest most vulnerable people in society, they shouldn’t be the ones having to pay, the people and companies with billions in the bank should be contributing that bit more.

Mad_Cyril

Homegrove Giving birth was like a 100 € or something.

So you got to give birth for €100?

Like Arnie in Junior ?

Homegrove

We’ve never had it completely free in the first place though.

C_J

Homegrove You see that’s the problem. Once you start giving stuff to people for free they become dependent on it and think they’re entitled to it.

for the record, I would not be expecting people on minimum wage or unemployed people to necessarily be contributing to this. The left like to paint this as evil Tories deliberately going after the poor and the vulnerable. I think that’s a bit childish personally.

bosstrabs

Besides the moral standpoint, I am fairly convinced by the practical argument that redistributive policies make the economy work better anyway, from the data I have seen.

Poorer households spend a much higher proportion of their income on consumption than rich people do. There is a fairly robust practical argument for things like unemployment benefits and subsidised/free necessities as the overall effect is to free up some of the low-income household budget for spending on crap like widescreen tellies (and Cath Kidston wellies) and thus boost consumer demand in the economy. This is why I (personally) think extreme supply-side economics is short-termist in that it is basically stripping the ability of poorer households to consume out of the economy.

C_J

bosstrabs you’re right Dave. But you won’t find (m)any Tories arguing that tax and the welfare state should be abolished. The point is that it needs to done in a way that is sustainable and not counterproductive in terms of disincentivising employment or crowding out other spending priorities.

Amps

C_J I would not be expecting people on minimum wage or unemployed people to necessarily be contributing to this. The left like to paint this as evil Tories deliberately going after the poor and the vulnerable. I think that’s a bit childish personally.

I don’t think you have enough cynicism towards the right then…

James Buchanan, 2005: people who “failed to foresee and save money for their future needs are to be treated, as subordinate members of the species, akin to…animals who are dependent”

Amps

C_J Once you start giving stuff to people for free they become dependent on it and think they’re entitled to it.

Bigger conversation there then about what as a human you should be entitled too. Another slippery slope… should they be entitled to water? Food? Shelter? Healthcare? Where do you start and stop? I think if a country is as wealthy as the UK is, we should be able to look after our own, and we should be able to give people free medical care, regardless of the fact that some of them will take it for granted or feel entitled to it.

Are you really that upset by the fact that some poor people are cunts, that you look at the state of America, and think, ’Yeah, they’ve got it right, I fancy a bit of that’? Plenty of the rich and wealthy are cunts too.

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