Sunak (General U.K. is Jaded thread)

Old-Dutch

whatever Russia invaded Ukraine for reasons that were entirely unprovoked,

When you’ve completely missed this point then there’s no point in continuing the discussion.

Putin is a cunt. What he has done is illegal but there is a lot more to it than that.

whatever

Old-Dutch whatever Russia invaded Ukraine for reasons that were entirely unprovoked,

When you’ve completely missed this post then there’s no point in continuing the discussion

What were the reasons that justified Russia invading Ukraine?

whatever

Old-Dutch Putin is a cunt. What he has done is illegal but there is a lot more to it than that.

If you agree that what he did was illegal, but NATO is wrong to defend its European allies or their actions are somehow beyond the pale, what is the ‘something more’ that is going on that does justify Russia’s actions?

whatever

Amps Old-Dutch NATO is essentially an extension of the US military complex

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!

That’s a confused position. You said, “why would they US / NATO attack”. NATO may agree with, or support an ally’s decision to take action but that is not the same as NATO carrying out the attack. The danger is that the moral confusion on this subject and as expressed by someone like Farage only serves to strengthen Russia’s propaganda.

Along_the_Wire

whatever an attack in this case is the threat of moving into Ukraine - it’s not literal, but Russia used that as an excuse for their invasion.

Dan

Old-Dutch Probably an advisory role to help with the missile system.

Along_the_Wire

whatever there was always the threat of NATO in Ukraine and them joining the EU. Am I making this up?

whatever

Along_the_Wire

Thanks for clarifying.

Ukraine had made known that it intended to become an EU member in 2002 maybe? I think the EU said membership would take 10-20 years and have since said that it will eventually become a member of NATO but still aren’t. The irony is that, if anything, Putin’s paranoia and path to invading Ukraine actually made it an imperative that they did apply for EU membership and other countries like Finland have since become full NATO members. In other words, it became Putin’s self-fulfilling prophecy.

I think that is also the answer to your other point which is that yes, Russia engineered a situation that they knew would likely would prompt a certain response, but to then use the situation you created, as a reason to further escalate situation doesn’t justify or make their actions credible.

Along_the_Wire

whatever to be clear, Russia are the bad actors, it’s ridiculous to claim otherwise, what I’m saying is that the concern (threat) of NATO in Ukraine was the excuse they were looking for.

Hursty

Along_the_Wire which if I’m correct is what Farage said?

Along_the_Wire

Hursty yes, which is why I’m not happy agreeing with the dispicable cunt.

Mad_Cyril

Hursty which if I’m correct is what Farage said?

It is, didn’t stop Newsnight making a fucking meal of it though, and inferring he said NATO caused the war.

This then spawns thousands of mindless berks deciding that the war was NATO’s fault, not Putins, and here we are.

Never ceases to amaze me how fucking dumb people are

Along_the_Wire

whatever so we largely agree? Apologies my end for not being clearer.

Along_the_Wire

Mad_Cyril even the right wing media thinks he’s a cunt for that one

Dubman

What it has done is diverted all the attention away from his manifesto/contract

Amps

Imagine if Russian allies started to amass near US borders… I wonder what the US response would be… oh wait, Cuba.

Homegrove

The whole Ukraine business started in 2014 when Ukrainians kicked out Putin’s buddy from the country. Putin wants Ukraine to be a vassal country like Belarus, this has got nothing to do with NATO. Ukraine has vast gas recourses, and their agriculture is also essential to Russia. Those being out of Putin’s reach was why the war started. In 2014, not 2022.

LT42

Homegrove The whole Ukraine business started in 2014 when Ukrainians kicked out Putin’s buddy from the country.

If you could just sit on the fence for 2 minutes and mirror this in terms of - what would the US do if Putin kicked out the US buddies in lets say, Panama or Colombia or even Mexico, and installed someone who was cosy with Putin? Ukraine has vast commodities that Putin needs and other countries that install US puppets have their share of commodities that are up for exploitation. Why is this method of imperialism only acceptable for the Capitalists?

If Putin was arming the Israelis during this genocide would the war there even have gone this long? None of it is ok but you have to treat both powers the same because they act the same way. World wars are not fought conventionally anymore but what we’re witnessing is a proxy world war and both sides are culpable for propaganda, interference and escalation, at least in my opinion anyway.

Homegrove

LT42 I am not of the opinion that US has been just the best country ever that has done no harm. I am absolutely of the opinion that both siding any issue is stupid.

LT42

Homegrove I am not of the opinion that US has been just the best country ever that has done no harm. I am absolutely of the opinion that both siding any issue is stupid.

Most would agree on the 1st part but I’m not sure what you mean about the 2nd part?

Homegrove

LT42 “Russia’s behaviour is bad, but we also need to talk how Americans did some bad stuff in Central America.”

The same issue plagues the talk about right wing violence in Finland. We’ve had two knifings of people of color done by white people in a week, and our prime minister somehow needed to bring up pretty much non existant left wing violence while admonishing the knife attacks. M

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