C_J 4th is probably about right imo… just that smarter management would take them up a notch or two… the shame of it is that anyone can win this WC - waste of an opportunity

      i notice that transfermarkt have England comfortably above Brazil as the #1 ranked side by market value. not sure if that means anything.

      Jules72 if we were still able to very nearly win the Euros last time out, despite a lame draw in our second game vs Scotland, then there’s little reason to think we can’t manage the same again this time. While it’s still unlikely we’ll win it, and Southgate is too cautious a manager, I wouldn’t rule it out entirely. He at least seems to have stopped with 5 at the back so far this tournament, which is perhaps slight progress towards a more positive approach.
      Also, what ultimately cost us from winning the Euros was mostly a poor choice of penalty takers - the novice Saka should have never taken one. Also Sancho has always been a wimp. Not sure if that comes down to tactics or not.

        Jules72 Southgate is England’s most successful tournament manager of the modern era. You keep banging on about how awful he is. Who would you replace him with?

            mono-stereo Southgate is England’s most successful tournament manager of the modern era.

            When has not winning anything meant being successful? Maybe he’s been the least worst failure, but defo not calling him succesful when he’s not. Glass half empty! 😂

                C_J england definitely are not lacking in quality

                They are, they don’t have the ability to control a game against quality opposition.

                Last 2 tournament exits illustrate perfectly. Both characterised by, second half’s in particularly, helpless inability to gain / maintain a foothold in the game because of the other teams ability to control midfield, the ball and ultimately the game.

                That hasn’t changed. We still don’t possess that quality, someone who can control the tempo of a game (unless you count Hey WHere’s My Tyre’s unique ability to slow a game down).

                A similar exit will occur when we come up against a quality footballing team. The only chance this doesn’t happen is

                They play only teams with less quality than us, unlikely
                They hit a hot streak in game, bag two or three goals and hang on.
                They get lucky (see previous two!)

                  mono-stereo In terms of winning games at major tournaments he’s clearly been successful.

                  This is undeniable, however shit you think Southgate is tactically or whatever.

                  He has got further in a competition than Bobby Robson, Terry Venables and way further than Capello or Eriksson (who both had fairly talented squads at their disposal).

                    ScottBailey Well actually now you come to mention it, yeah, it’s about qualifying for a tournament in the first place. Somthing the likes of Steve McClaren and Graham Taylor failed to do.

                        Poor Graham Taylor deserves a bit of credit he had Charlton Palmer and Andy Sinton at his disposal. England managers in the last 20 years have had the most talented players in their history underlining the underachieving, bottling, individual pre madonna attitudes that exist. Maybe it’s money self entitlement it’s hard to get to the bottom of it, but why is it in individual sports the English over achieve?

                          I have pre Madonna attitudes. The only female solo artists I like are Nina Simone and Janis Joplin.

                          Pre Christian attitudes. Basically all savages from the year 30 BC.

                          Wonder how many participation trophies Shitegate has in his trophy cabinet from his illustrious career. Must smell like success in that room!