Dubman Assuming they’re introduced (passports) AFTER the COVID vaccine has been offered to everyone, how does your hippy friend see it being any different to needing a yellow fever vaccination certificate to visit yellow fever risk countries in Africa and South/Central America?

      vinnyt77 firstly, a yellow fever vaccine is a one-off thing which doesn’t even require a booster - there are only a few countries which request that you’ve had it even within the previous 10 years.

      With governments constantly stoking concerns about variants of Covid being discovered - which is inevitable given the nature of the virus but not necessarily any more dangerous - it could effectively lead to people being forced to be given some kind of jab every year for little reason. Remember, this is something which for a significant percentage of adults is no more dangerous than the flu. Long-term effects of mrna vaccines are also completely unknown.

      Plus, as I’ve outlined earlier in this thread, making people dependent on being able to obtain a vaccine to participate in public life is open to all sorts of potential abuse and unfair discrimination by governments. Imagine if young people are basically prevented from ever leaving their own country because they are always placed at the bottom of a never ending vaccine booster jab queue - you’ve basically created another version of the DDR without even having to erect a wall.

      Next, while vaccine passports do exist for some countries, these are not necessarily ones which require visa-free travel for most people anyway. Covid passports could effectively ride roughshod over existing open travel arrangements such as the Schengen zone. It can give countries excuses which they didn’t have before to deny people from visiting their country or leaving their country for political reasons; open travel corridors between countries for their people could end up being as fiercely contested as trade deal negotiations.

      Fourth, it does not necessarily appear as if covid passports will only be needed for allowing people to leave or enter a country - it seems governments are open to the possibility (or might even demand) that certain businesses check and discriminate against people based on their covid passport while within their own country. Are you really alright with the possibility of say governments only allowing people with a recent vaccine to enter a nightclub in perpetuity? No end date is currently given for restrictions. What if they demand that mass political demonstrations are also only permissable for those with a “valid” vaccine passport?

      Lastly, as I’ve also already pointed out - who is to say this stops at covid information being on the passports? The EU are considering that such passports will be digital - not just say a printed out confirmation form from a doctor. Who’s to say that they don’t start adding other information on to such a digital card? It would be easy to do. Then they subsequently facilitate countries or businesses to discriminate not just on covid but on other information which is on the card. Once such a precedent has been set, what could stop them?

        Some good points, particularly the last paragraph.

        All restrictions are due to be lifted in the UK on the 21st June. I think if a club, bar, or other venue should be able to insist on having evidence of vaccine - if they get shut down for a couple of weeks with every outbreak, their business will be fucked.

          When you consider the medical impact Covid has had on the world in terms of infections, deaths, long-term health effects (still unlikely to know anywhere like the full extent of this).

          Then think about the effects on the economy, jobs, livlihoods, people’s businesses.

          Then consider the mental health effects that it has caused. People losing loved ones, pressures of lockdown, unemployment etc.

          The impact on schooling and education on our children.

          This is being felt all over the world. In almost every country. I think the concept of vaccine passports is a good thing if countries can protect themselves when we get out of this mess. Why expose your country to the risk of this again because someone doesn’t want to take a vaccine? Every country will have their own populations who refuse the vaccine and you run the risk of these people all getting ill / spreading the virus again if it gets back into your borders.

          People have a choice - nobody needs to travel anywhere for a holiday.

            You can just stay at home and pretend to drive somewhere

            Along_the_Wire All restrictions are due to be lifted in the UK on the 21st June

            Not true - that UK government document seems to leave open the possibility that venues can open, but only allow people in who either have proof of a vaccine or who have a negative test done on the door. How practical would it be for clubs to have to be constantly running covid tests on the door and making people wait in a second queue for a further 15+ minutes until the result is processed.

            Along_the_Wire if they get shut down for a couple of weeks with every outbreak, their business will be fucked.

            Could be.

            It’s especially nuts as people going to clubs, bars, concerts and other such venues are generally not going to be at risk at all.

            Once the vulnerable have been vaccinated there are zero decent excuses left whatsoever as to why restrictions shouldn’t be lifted in their entirety for everyone else.

                  Old-Dutch People have a choice - nobody needs to travel anywhere for a holiday.

                  That’s easy to say when you actually have the choice; you don’t get that choice when your ability to leave is taken away from you subject to government whims.

                  It doesn’t necessarily stop at just holidays either - they could prevent people going abroad to study or for work with the same excuses.

                  I bet you’d have loved the DDR.

                    I am not alright with vaccine passports for domestic use, travel and access and the government should legislate against that not leave it open to interpretation. It’s unfair, unethical and against civil liberties. It’s wrong and it won’t be the affluent middle classes like me that suffer most. As for travelling abroad, if that’s what other countries demand, so be it. Every age group across Europe will need be vaccinated first before they unpack that and they will also need to offer a sensible solution where children are concerned for family holidays. Travel and hospitality companies are on their knees so it’s in everyones interest come up with a fair, practical solution.

                      You do have a choice. Take the vaccination that is being offered to you for free or not. If a country doesn’t want you without having taken a vaccine then that’s the deal

                      If not taking it comes with caveats then that’s up to you.

                        hugopal Not true

                        What’s not true? The fourth step from 21 June will potentially see all legal limits on social contact removed, with the final closed sectors of the economy reopened - such as nightclubs.

                            Old-Dutch once the vulnerable have been vaccinated, what are the grounds for restricting the lives of everyone else (regardless whether they want the vaccine or not)?

                                Along_the_Wire potentially

                                Key word there.

                                Also, the government can allow nightclubs to open on that date, but still require it only allow in people in to the “open” nightclub with either a vaccination certificate or a negative test done on the door. The document does not rule this out and the general noises from the government point in this direction.

                                I reckon it’s likely that this will be the initial policy in the UK, however damaging and impractical it is.

                                    hugopal The document does not rule this out

                                    It doesn’t rule out that I’m a cunt either. What a ridiculous thing to say.

                                        Along_the_Wire it isn’t true that all restrictions are due to be lifted, because as I have pointed out there are actually allowances for some to still be in place.

                                            hugopal And then you guff on about what may happen as it hasn’t been ruled out. Potentially all restrictions will be lifted, that’s the wording, so to say categorically that’s not true is just bollocks. Of course there may be other restriction that may, or may not be ruled out, but they aren’t visible yet.

                                              Along_the_Wire hmm, have a read of this article:

                                              https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-will-life-look-like-after-21-June

                                              Particularly the below quoted paragraph.

                                              And keep in mind that James Forsyth’s wife, Allegra Stratton, is Boris Johnson’s Press Secretary…

                                              “The second thing that will determine how normal life feels is the use of ‘Covid status certification’. This is whether you might have to produce proof of vaccination or a negative test to do things in this country. Johnson is instinctively uncomfortable with the idea. But some such arrangement is increasingly seen as almost inevitable — how else could you reopen a nightclub safely? The view in Whitehall is that the government is unlikely to ban venues from using such schemes but will want them to use Covid testing rather than rely exclusively on so-called vaccine passports, which discriminate against those unable to have the jab for any reason.”

                                                  hugopal

                                                  Clearly only vulnerable people get and die from COVID. Lockdown has always been a preventative strategy to slow the spread of infection until rates dropped to a level where it felt that we could open up again. And look what happened as soon as we did.

                                                  The only way out of lockdown was the vaccine. It will be interesting to see the impact of schools going back has.