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  • Election 2024: The Fate of Democracy

  • Amps

    • Post #1553

    alistair I am talking about what’s best for those fairly new to the work place not middle aged. Out of sight, out of mind. In a client facing role, where enthusiasm and new ideas are embraced, I am not promoting someone I never see.

    I think there is some truth in this for people in their first few years of a job, but on the whole the argument against working from home is just rich landlords trying to stop rent losses. You can see them sweating and panicking.

    I’ve worked at two in house design / marketing departments, totalling about 12 years, both very corporate, both in office: one place was verging on toxic and at both I would say I spent at least a quarter of my working day in meetings I didn’t need to be in, or listening to people in senior positions just talk at me because they wanted to talk and feel important. I reckon I could have added more value to both jobs if I did all or some of my work from home. Both were an hours commute either way, and both included regular unpaid overtime.

        Amps but on the whole the argument against working from home is just rich landlords trying to stop rent losses

        There are two other important (and slightly related) factors that don’t get enough coverage IMO:

        1) Most managers don’t trust their workforce to work unless they have eyeballs on them, and
        2) Most managers have no idea how to set realistic objectives and goals that they want their teams to deliver. As a result, those mnagers feel more comfortable when they can ‘see’ what their teams are working on, in person.

        • Amps replied to this.

            As soon as the shift towards wfh happened, the right wing media were straight in with the bollocks about, not getting the benefits of being noticed in the office. That argument was predicated on the same principle of presenteeism where your value is judged by how long you are in the office, disregarding how effective you are — and the diminishing returns the longer you are at work. If success in your job is contingent on being “noticed” that says more about the workplace — and that it doesn’t matter what impact your work has — or your performance. If you are wfh and doing work that isn’t being noticed, that is an issue with the structure of the workplace — not whether you are wfh / in the office.

            Many companies noted increases in productivity, morale and motivation from wfh and still companies persisted with the shite about not being able to communicate etc.

            Sure enough, it transpired that the main factor for them all along was a decrease in property value and the preoccupation with control over the workforce.

            The RTO mandates are now being used as a tool to push people to resign, rather than restructure alienating employees, losing talent and holding on to those who are too desperate to stay that they will put up with anything.

            It quite clearly had nothing to do with any metric of performance or productivity.

            Yup. Agree with the last two posts. My area of the business has grown 15-20% per year with the vast majority of people WFH. If it ain’t broke.

            • RichM

              • Post #1558

              What about the fact that humans are social by nature and that interacting in person rather than over technology adds a lot more value. I get so much more value speaking to people face to face rather than over Teams calls, it’s more personal and can create better outcomes. The amount of meetings on Teams where most the people are doing other stuff doesn’t help a successful meeting.

              However it’s about balance, not being in the office 5 days a week, but I think 50/50 split works well. Everyone gets the best of both worlds.

              Work was also great during my 20s and 30s where it was a much more social environment and there was a lot of working hard during the day but then going out on the piss in the evening, it was great. Built up strong relationships with people. However I know those days are gone and also recognise there were plenty of downfalls with that working environment, but personally I preferred it and would do it all over again compared to the work culture today.

                RichM

                Agreed. The issue I take is applying a one-size fits all approach and having to make up reasons why people can’t work flexibly. Too many employers won’t move forward and want to hark back to outdated ways of doingthings. .

                    RichM and that interacting in person rather than over technology adds a lot more value.

                    Not universally true. Great if this works for you, but a sweeping statement that it’s demonstrably and obhectively better is wide of the mark.

                        Smallman1 3 days a week in the office for me too.

                        It’s a wonder they permit you to work from the office. The top level bantz must be very distracting for your colleagues, having to constantly roll around on the floor in fits of laughter.

                          • RichM

                            • Post #1562

                            vinnyt77 the whole office v wfh debate will go on for years. We are all different and have different preferences, it’s def not one size fits all. Too many people stick to their preference and not prepared to accept other people have different preferences. The best companies can do is try and cater for everyone. At the end of the day we are all adults!

                                RichM 100% agree. Was tough during lockdown listening to folks in houseshares joining calls (in some cases) from their toilets, because it was the only free/quiet space.

                                I’ve been a 95% home based worker for upwards of 10 years. I’d find a proper 2-3 day hybrid model tough to get back to, but would consider it if I thought it made sense. 5 days a week in an office can get in the fucking bin.

                                  alistair you either already do, or will work in a talent vacuum. It’s already happening at Amazon - they enforced a 5 day working week from the office and thousands have left - I’ll bet it isn’t the shit ones.

                                      I feel offended that I’m asked to go to the toilet “if I want to do that”

                                      It hurts my feelings

                                      Along_the_Wire they want an inch and you take a foot?

                                      Got it the wrong way round. Isn’t he the one taking an inch?

                                        RichM a couple of us managers went to the boozer on the fly yesterday (Trading House Gresham street). Invited some of the younger team members in the office. Talked work and got know them better as people. Enjoyable three pints.

                                            Along_the_Wire Not at all. The younger ones living in London like being in a nice new office. Proper work stations, screens, meeting rooms, gym downstairs, fridge full of sof drinks, fresh fruit, decent coffee machines. Three days in the office (not five), more if you want.

                                                alistair Not at all. The younger ones living in London like being in a nice new office. Proper work stations, screens, meeting rooms, gym downstairs, fridge full of sof drinks, fresh fruit, decent coffee machines. Three days in the office (not five), more if you want.

                                                This is the core of the corporate self-delusion. People don’t come to work for fruit, soft drinks, and coffee machines. Whether it is a new office or not doesn’t come into it — a bad workplace is a bad workplace no matter whether it is new.

                                                Employers know full well that people aren’t any more inclined to do working lunches just because pizza is laid on.

                                                They already have the means to do all these things. They simply pretend that these are incentive, and play along with employers that offer these as a poor alternative to the actual things they need. The same goes for corporate days out for some forced fun.

                                                Workplaces are full of people pretending to buy in to it. The imbalance of power requires them to.

                                                This just narrows the blinkers of employers that are high on their own supply of Kool Aid because they supplied a fridge stocked with fizzy pop.

                                                They know that they do this because it is the cheaper alternative, and — in the case of flexibility — because they know their employer won’t relinquish control.

                                                Meanwhile, the disenchantment grows and people leave at the first opportunity for employers that do offer something closer to what they are actually seeking.

                                                    Anyone remember virtual events during the pandemic? Our B2B events business has never been in better health. If ever there was a barometer for people wanting to knowledge share, network and meet peers/clients. Berlin at the end of the month, Orlando in March. Accounts might be as effective from home but they have zero people skills anyway.

                                                    whatever I don’t disagree with many of these sentiments, but again - it’s too broad a brush, and sweeping. There are plenty of folks who prefer working in an office - some of them for some of the week, but some of them for all of it. Whether that’s because they don’t have room at home, have kids that’ll distract them, or they just want to be able to keep a distinct line between work and home.

                                                    The best companies, for me, acknowledge this, by providing a decent working space for those that want it when they want it, but provide total flexibility to those that don’t - and ensure their management teams are capable of running virtual teams as effectively as colocated teams.

                                                        vinnyt77

                                                        Definitely. There are a lot of good companies that do meet different needs — and for sure, many people want to work in an office environment.

                                                        My pushback is against the idea that the companies that force a return to work in spurious grounds and think that offering a a range of beverages makes up for it.

                                                            whatever My pushback is against the idea that the companies that force a return to work in spurious grounds and think that offering a a range of beverages makes up for it.

                                                            100%. The most spurious I’ve come across was the company I was working for during the pandemic. They tried to enforce a 5 day RTO policy post pandemic, because the company had spunked £5m on an office refurb in late 2019, and they wanted to ‘get value’ out of it. Fuckwits.

                                                              I get hacked off in my office. Meeting rooms booked up everywhere and hot desks all taken by the time I get in. Fuck that for a game of soldiers. All my clients use Teams/zoom/Google anyway so why should I be in an office for that? I do go in when there’s a free drinks/food event though. That’s plenty of networking thanks. I’ve done years of commuting in and out of London and I can’t be arsed doing that any more ta.

                                                                Millsy I’ve done years of commuting in and out of London and I can’t be arsed doing that any more ta.

                                                                Should’ve moved to Tooting

                                                                  Millsy Meeting rooms booked up everywhere and hot desks all taken by the time I get in.

                                                                  And the noise in these open plan offices. No thanks.

                                                                  • Amps replied to this.

                                                                      • Amps

                                                                        • Post #1581

                                                                        vinnyt77 1) Most managers don’t trust their workforce to work unless they have eyeballs on them, and
                                                                        2) Most managers have no idea how to set realistic objectives and goals that they want their teams to deliver. As a result, those mnagers feel more comfortable when they can ‘see’ what their teams are working on, in person.

                                                                        If you had a hand in employing someone, interviewed them etc. and then don’t trust them you need to have a word with yourself. I’d argue a lot of it is more ego driven though, you can’t lord it over someone and feel important about yourself if you don’t have an audience. I once had a boss sprint up the stairs so he could push past me at the office door and be the first in, promptly giving it the big ‘MORNING TEAM!!!!!’ whilst looking pink in the face and struggling for breath.

                                                                          • Amps

                                                                            • Post #1582

                                                                            whatever fizzy pop

                                                                            I’m paying you a couple of grand off the going rate for your role, but here’s a can of Coke Zero dressed up as ’camaraderie, respect and healthy work life balance you fuckin pleb.

                                                                              • Amps

                                                                                • Post #1583

                                                                                mono-stereo My last place was an open room of just under a 100 people, basically impossible to work without noise cancelling headphones. Was a new purpose built building too, no idea what they were thinking.

                                                                                  • RichM

                                                                                    • Post #1585

                                                                                    whatever there is the counter argument which is lots of people only want to wfh and are convinced working in an office is outdated and no longer a good thing. It’s a slightly selfish view as it only focusses on what they want, not what’s best all round for the company and other employees. I’ve had a couple of examples in the office where several of us have had a quick catch up on an issue / update, but then as we need someone else involved who is wfh we can’t do it there and then. We then have to find a meeting room to dial them in or all go to our desks and do a Teams call. That’s not ideal.
                                                                                    However as I’ve mentioned it’s all about balance and what’s best all round for everyone. Everyone needs to be reasonable as some things work for them and others don’t. It won’t be perfect

                                                                                        My work would love to have me in every day, light up the place as soon as I walk in.

                                                                                        Energy, bants and panache, I should ask for a pay rise.

                                                                                        RichM

                                                                                        I think I would say something similar to what I said to Vinny above. I don’t think a one-size-fits-all approach is good on either side of the argument. I managed teams during the pandemic and was quite surprised by the number of people that wanted to be in the office because of loneliness, home environment etc. Imagine how Ed’s Julie would find it if he was at home every day — everyone needs some respite, right?

                                                                                        The main point I am trying to make — and maybe I should have added a bit more nuance when I posted — is the disingenuous reasons advanced by some employers for why they employees can’t wfh and the pantomime of ‘well we provide x amenities, so that’s alright isn’t it’. Linked to this, is that it is becoming increasingly common for businesses — the tech industry being an example — that offer onsite gyms, cafeterias etc. specifically to keep employees onsite for as long as possible, which is antithetical to the notion of employees striking a balance between work and home and points to the real reason behind ‘you can’t work flexibly but have you seen our fridge packed with Diet Coke?’.

                                                                                          I won’t work for a company that doesn’t have offer bean bags and table football.

                                                                                          An old school arcade game, Pac Man or Street Fighter2 a bonus too.

                                                                                          A lot of nervous people in Washington DC at the moment it seems

                                                                                          • Amps replied to this.

                                                                                            alistair that’s called grooming nowadays

                                                                                              Three fights in the first nine seconds between Canada and USA at the ice hockey 😂

                                                                                                mrrossi Only watched the 3rd period, looked pretty uninspired all around. That said, I’m all for booing americans at every opportunity, so not a total loss.